Damage control

A cacklefest from Dawkins and Myers re: their experience at the Expelled screening in Minneapolis. Most laughable is how they figure they "got us" by blowing the whistle on our cell animation segment. Glad to hear you're on the ball, PZ, but you're barking up the wrong tree. But if it makes you feel mighty, go for it!

Comments

[micketymoc]

Funny, the whole Harvard animation issue wasn't the main focus of the conversation in the first place, seeing as how they devote more-than-ample time to the laughable expulsion of Myers and Dawkins' admittance.

Love Dawkins' summation at the end: “It’s a spectacular own-goal, a spectacular piece of foot-shooting, shooting oneself in the foot, that simply compounds the poor artistic quality of the film itself… these people are simply inept in filmmaking as well as in public relations!”

Heard from Mark Mathis yet? Can't wait to see him spin his way out of this one.

[Cheese]

Kevin - What is "laughable" about their take on the cell animation stuff? What do you mean by "barking up the wrong tree"? Sorry, I wasn't clear on the point you were trying to make.

[wnelson]

They're scared: nervous laughter, some boilerplate poisoning the well technique, and whole lot of protesting too much.

There's something about that that reminds me of a couple of people huddling to get their stories straight.

[Rich]

"...a very, very shoddy, poor, inartistic piece of work..."

[Adrian]

Could you please explain, with something other than sarcastic, abrasive attack words, why he was expelled, why you have lied about the Nazi-Atheism connection, and why their side comment on the animation is so laughable?

You know, these are things that drive people away. These, manipulations, by you(the creationists) are actually driving more Christians to Atheism. It does not take much searching to discover that one is being lied to.

I used to be a Christian, then I decided to fact-check.

[Kevin Miller]

Adrian:

1. As I've noted elsewhere on my blog, the producers of Expelled will issue a statement on the reason behind PZ's eviction. It's not my role to speak for them.

2. We have not lied about a Nazi-Atheism connection. If you actually watch the film, you'll see we don't even address that topic. However, we do address the Darwin-Hitler connection.

3. The reason their side comment on the celluar animation is laughable is that they went to the bother of posting this video online without doing some simple fact-checking. Their accusations that we "borrowed" this piece from Harvard is completely unfounded. Our team created it for our film.

As for your statements about Christianity, I fail to see how they are relevant. Expelled is not about Christians vs. atheists. It's about what happens when the quest for truth becomes a quest for power and control. It's about tyranny in the Academy and its consequences. Nothing more.

[Rich]

" Expelled is not about Christians vs. atheists."

Well, it appears to be marketed heavily towards the religious right.

[jasperjava]

Unbelievable that you had a COP prevent Myers from seeing your movie. What kind of fascist are you, anyway? Ever hear of freedom of speech? Freedom of assembly? Freedom of conscience?

It's simply pathetic that you're so scared of PZ Myers. Contemptible.

[Nullifidian]

"We have not lied about a Nazi-Atheism connection. If you actually watch the film, you'll see we don't even address that topic. However, we do address the Darwin-Hitler connection."

Guess you haven't been paying attention to Hitler's own words on the subject, then.

From: Hitlers Tischgesprache im Fuhrerhauptquartier 1941-2.

'Woher nehmen wir das Recht zu glauben, der Mensch sei nicht von Uranfängen das gewesen, was er heute ist? Der Blick in die Natur zeigt uns, dass im Bereich der Pflanzen und Tiere Veraenderungen und Weiterbildungen vorkommen. Aber nirgends zeigt sich innherhalb einer Gattung eine Entwicklung von der Weite des Sprungs, den der Mensch gemacht haben muesste, sollte er sich aus einem affenartigen Zustand zu dem, was er ist, fortgebildet haben.'

"Whence do we get the right to believe that man was not from his very beginnings that what he is today? A look at nature shows us that, in the realm of the plants and animals, changes and adaptations happen. But no development is shown, inside a species, that includes a leap as large as man would have had to make to evolve from some apelike state to what he is today."

Isn't it the creationists who say that they don't argue against what they call 'microevolution', but dismiss the possibility of humanity's shared common ancestry with the rest of the apes?

"3. The reason their side comment on the celluar animation is laughable is that they went to the bother of posting this video online without doing some simple fact-checking. Their accusations that we "borrowed" this piece from Harvard is completely unfounded. Our team created it for our film."

I wasn't aware that "your team" on this filmmaking venture contained any structural biologists.

Here's a little bit on copyright law that you might want to be aware of: even if the animation was done by a new animation team but is "substantially derived" from the Harvard animation, it's still copyright infringement.

In the Groves of Academe, it would be called plagiarism. If you don't want to be 'expelled' from Academe, then perhaps your lot ought to get on board with the expected standards of behaviour.

[Nullifidian]

"Expelled is not about Christians vs. atheists."

And yet you have a whole segment called "Darwinists and Religion". Have you forgotten what you wrote so quickly? Not to mention the film is being produced and marketed by companies founded by religious fundamentalists.

[Cedric Katesby]

"Expelled"

Coming to a church basement near you!

[Maggie]

I'm sorry... did you just say that 'your team' created the video in question? The same video that Bill Dembski got busted using without permission? The video created by Alain Viel, Robert A. Lue of Harvard and John Liebler of XVIVO? That video?

What was that about fact-checking?

[ellazimm]

Still waiting on the producers' comments . .

[Nullifidian]

"I'm sorry... did you just say that 'your team' created the video in question? The same video that Bill Dembski got busted using without permission? The video created by Alain Viel, Robert A. Lue of Harvard and John Liebler of XVIVO? That video?"

"What was that about fact-checking?"

In fairness, Maggie, one of the commenters on Pharyngula who is not associated with this film went through the mind-numbing and brain-damaging process of viewing the clip with the animation over and over again against the Harvard version, and decided that they were very similar but not the same.

However, it won't help them because simply re-animating Harvard's work is still a substantial derivation from the animation being ripped off, and will leave them just as legally liable in a civil suit.

[Lee Harrison]

"Expelled is not about Christians vs. atheists."

Then why is it so heavily marketed to christians?

This 'not about atheist/Xian' nonsense is just another dishonest statement on the same lines as "ID is not about Christianity" - despite every christian's recognition that, YES it is and despite the cdesign proponentsists own statements and admissions when preaching to their cheering squad (try Dembski's (paraphrased) "Intelligent Design is just the Logos of St John's gospel restated in the language of information theory.")

Unless you are insulated from American culture by five miles of cotton wool, you know damn well that the movie plays on the atheist/Xian split.

Don't insult our intelligence further.

[Duae Quartunciae]

I think PZ Myers and Dawkins were very rash in their comments about the animations. It was the jarring note for me in the whole thing. Myers didn't see it, and Dawkins was not familiar with it; they simply don't have any good basis for the speculation, other than the fact Dembski misused the Harvard animations in some of his talks.

Bear in mind that there is another ID friendly video, also with animations, produced well before the Harvard videos. It's in Unlocking the Mystery of Life. So yes, ID proponentists can do animations. I'd be amazed if they used Harvard animations in Expelled, and I believe Kevin when he says they did not.

I'm a vocal critic of the ID movement. Everything I've seen about this "Expelled" film looks like more of the same second rate shoddy set of distortions I've been addressing now for years.

But sometimes the critics of ID can get it wrong... and these speculations about the animation sequence certainly look like a case in point. Myers and Dawkins were clear that they were speculating, but it was a weak case, and a very poor choice for including in their chat.

[Jack Rawlinson]

"Pathetic and Sad" is a perfect title for this post. It's pathetic and sad to see Miller desperately trying to spin his way out of what the whole world can see was a total and perfect pwning.

Have the grace to admit it, Miller: you and your crew of anti-science, anti-reason, anti-HONESTY propagandists screwed up royally here. Your pitiful and transparently disingenuous attempts at damage limitation just make you look ever more weak and foolish and you'd better believe they're not going down at all well with the more reasonable end of the believer spectrum, either. It isn't just we atheists who can see what a PR screw-up this was for the "Expelled" gang. When you're in a hole, stop digging.

Actually, strike that last remark. Carry on!

[Duae Quartunciae]

Here is a genuine question about the animations, Kevin.

Where they at all related to the animations produced by Illustra Media, used in the Intelligent Design DvD "Unlocking the Mystery of Life"? Or was Illustra Media the group that produced the animations you used?

In comments at Richard Dawkins' website, a commenter refuted Dawkins and Myers' specuations about an XVIVO connection, by declaring the Expelled sequences to be the same as those used in "Unlocking". The commenter is ID supporter RC Metcalf, and the comment is #67 in the discussion of the Dawkins and Myers little fireside chat video. Link: http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2389,Discussion-on-PZ-Myers-being-expelled-from-Expelled,Richard-Dawkins-PZ-Myers,page2#148247

[Kevin Miller]

Duae: We created the animation in conjunction with an animation studio and several cell biologists. It is a completely original work. The only similarity I can see between it and the Harvard animation is that it may portray one or more of the same cellular processes. But as far as I'm concerned, no one has copyrighted any cellular processes--at least not yet. I'm sure Craig Venter would like to. :) If Dawkins had stuck around to read the full credits for the film, he would have known this. It has nothing to do with the Illustra animation.

[steve_h]

Is the animation in the film the same as the one on the DVD given away at the screening?

If so, I am surprised PZ hasn't issued a correction.

[Tegumai Bopsulai, FCD]

"If so, I am surprised PZ hasn't issued a correction."

Hey, the man is busy. He was in Minneapolis to attend a convention with his family and friends. If he had been allowed to see the film himself, the misunderstanding would likely not have arisen. I expect him to issue a correction within the week, after he has time to review the material at his disposal. I expect him to do this not because he owes a favor to Kevin Miller, who has after all just written a movie comparing PZ to Nazis and Stalinists, but because of his own code of ethics and respect for truth.

Think about what you're asking here, Mr. Miller: you want one viewpoint to be squelched just because it is at variance with demonstrable fact. Isn't that precisely the opposite of the message that is delivered in this film you have associated yourself with? If you had any standards at all, you would insist that you be listed in the credits as Alan Smithee.

Gott mit uns!

[Kevin Miller]

Whose viewpoint am I asking to be squelched again?

[steve_h]

Kevin: Is that a "Yes"?

[Tegumai Bopsulai, FCD]

The viewpoint that says the people behind Expelled! pirated a Harvard/XVivo animation.

[Anon]

I am confused. You state above:
"2. We have not lied about a Nazi-Atheism connection. If you actually watch the film, you'll see we don't even address that topic. However, we do address the Darwin-Hitler connection."

But the EXPELLED website states that:
" In fact, Nazi Germany is the thread that ties everything in the movie together. Evolution leads to atheism leads to eugenics leads to Holocaust and Nazi Germany."

Which is it? Is evolution tied to nazism or not?